Posts by Disillusioned JW

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

By the great crowd in the temple in heaven, I mean even in the sanctuary (NAOS) of the heavenly temple - not in the courtyard.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

The library closest to me (the one in my small city) has the Crisis of Conscience book and currently available for check out. It is the one from 2004, the 4th Edition (published by Commentary Press). Today I thus placed a hold request for it and I intend to pick it up tomorrow (the universe willing ). Yeah! In contrast none of the branches of the county library in the neighboring big city has it, nor does the huge library of the university I had graduated from decades ago. None of them have the other book by Raymond Franz. I now think the Crisis of Conscience book I read years ago must have been one I must have checked out from my local library, instead of me having bought it.

Beth Sarim, when I previously read Crisis of Conscience (but I didn't read all of it) it was after I had stopped attending WT Meetings (other than probably the Memorial and the Circuit Assemblies) - after I began having serious doubts about the WT/JW religion and during the time period I was doing independent research of the WT and the Bible, before I became an atheist. When I had read the book it was primarily to look for critiques of WT doctrines but I found little of that in book and that disappointed me. Either in that book, and/or online, I read Raymond state his reasoning backing up his idea that the great crowd mentioned in Revelation will be in heaven according to the Bible. I was very impressed; I was thinking wow, his scriptural reasoning is excellent - far better than that given in much of the WT literature! I was convinced of the correctness (according the scriptures) of his teaching that the great crowd will be heaven in the heavenly temple.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Thanks Beth Sarim for telling me about Deborah Dykstra's edition of Crisis of Conscience. I think I would prefer to buy that edition, provided I can be confident that she didn't change any of the wording of what Franz wrote. That is because I read the following about it.

Dykstra's edition includes an epilogue by her in which she mentions her experiences. She was a friend of Raymond Franz and his wife. She had also been a regular pioneer and a temporary special pioneer, but is now out of the religion and has a number of negative views about the religion. I think the epilogue mentions those things in detail.

Perhaps I will check out both editions from the library (most likely by Inter Library Loan), so I can decide which one I prefer, before I purchase an edition.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the books which have been removed, I am talking about from the library closest to my home (which is in a small city on the edge of a biggest city of the state). Though some evolution books from the 1980s and older (ones I needed use to look up quotes from the WT Creation book of the 1980s, are gone many other much newer evolution books are there, including newer editions of Darwin's Origin of the Species book.)

Entire shelves of reference books (including ones on science and technology), including a set of Britannica Encyclopedia were removed, without them being offered for sale to patrons of the library. I was told that was because people hardly use them anymore, especially since people can find up to date reference information on the internet now. It was also because the library did so to free up space to install study rooms in that area for patrons; they said patrons wanted more of such rooms. However, the small city library does subscribe to the online Britannica Encyclopedia and provides free access to it to patrons of the library. The library also got rid of all of the microfiche (and machine viewing machines for such) and most of all of their microfilm (but keeping the NY Times microfilm), saying now people hardly request such. They said it was also because the big library in the big city has such. [In contrast the large old central library branch for the big city seems to hold onto their books forever, and I've seem many atheist books there.]

The Friends of the local small city library conducts large events of book (and DVD and CD) sales (mostly of books and other items donated to them, but some are ex-libary items from the small city library), to raise funds for the small city library. The sales take place inside the library - one will take place from this Wednesday through Sunday (with Sunday being clearance pricing day).

One of the former reference desk librarians (in my small city) was a devout Christian (who is also very nice) and I got the impression she probably decided to remove some of the atheist books since I know she had authority to decide which books to order for the library and which to remove from the library. But I don't know if she removed any atheist books. I don't even know if any atheistic books have been removed, I just thought some were since I don't seem to see as many on the shelves as I did before, but perhaps those are simply checked out more frequently now. Reference desk librarians have told me they track usage of items in the library. When items are hardly checked out they remove them and order something else which they think will interest patrons more. The library has much less space than the central branch of the big city library (which even has closed stacks of shelves of books and off-site storage). There is a book case in the library (or used to be such, but maybe now it is in the Friends store) of books which the library offers for sale (as ex-library books) very cheap - but more than 95% of those are fiction.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

If the books are not in any of the local libraries, I can request it via ILL (Inter Library Loan). I borrowed a lot of books that way. Yes I can buy the books on eBay; I think that the Franz book or two that I read years ago I obtained that way, and if so I later sold I it/them on eBay.

Before when I read the books I didn't dwell on what was said about what happened behind the scenes in the WT organization since I couldn't (or thought I couldn't) prove (or determine) if such claims were true. But now maybe I can determine such, simply by determining how well the explanations are of the visible actions of the WT. I am now much more suspicious of the WT and see more bad actions of the WT than I detected 15+ years ago.

In the library closest to me, a number of books promoting atheism and some books promoting evolution have been removed from the library by one (or more) reference librarians. A reference librarian told me that books are removed if they are rarely checked out. And, in the case of science books they are removed if they are old and thus considered obsolete (especially if another library branch in the county network has it), and that they are replaced with new science books. But I noticed that a much larger local library holds unto books for many decades.

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Disillusioned JW

https://www.timesofisrael.com/oded-golan-is-not-guilty-of-forgery-so-is-the-james-ossuary-for-real/ is of news article called "Oded Golan is not guilty of forgery. So is the ‘James ossuary’ for real? The failure of a high-profile prosecution for antiquities fraud perpetuates the mystery of a find hailed as physical proof that Jesus existed". That article says in part the following.

'Oded Golan, the Tel Aviv collector accused of forging biblical artifacts, was at the center of a seven-year trial that ended in his acquittal Wednesday. But he was never its star — that role belonged to the artifacts themselves.

While the significance of the exoneration for Golan himself is obvious, what it means for the antiquities is less clear.

The most famous of the artifacts is a stone box known as the “James ossuary,” exhibited at the Royal Ontario Museum a decade ago and touted by some scholars as the first archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus. It bears an Aramaic inscription reading, “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.”

...

In his ruling Wednesday, the judge went out of his way to say that the fact Golan had been found not guilty did not mean the artifacts were real.

His decision to clear Golan of forging the inscription on the James ossuary, he wrote, “does not mean that the inscription on the ossuary is authentic or that it was written 2,000 years ago. This will continue to be studied by scientists and archaeologists, and time will tell.

“Moreover,” he wrote, “it was not proven in any way that the words ‘the brother of Jesus’ necessarily refer to the ‘Jesus’ who appears in Christian writings.” '

https://www.haaretz.com/1.5191380 is of a news article called "'Naked Archaeologist' Finds Signs Jerusalem Cave Was Used to Bury Jesus' Disciples: Simcha Jacobovici, an Emmy-winning documentary director and producer, hopes findings of current explorations will substantiate his earlier theory that Jesus was buried in a nearby cave." That article says in part the following.

'Jacobovici, along with the experts he has enlisted, claims the words are "God" in Greek, the Tetragrammaton (the traditionally unutterable four-letter name of God in Hebrew ), the word "arise" or "resurrected" in Greek, and the word "arise" or "resurrected" in Hebrew.

This appears to support the claim that the cave was used as an early Christian burial site because the idea that a mainstream member of the Jewish community would inscribe an ossuary with the Tetragrammaton is unlikely; even a prayer containing this word has never been found on an ossuary.

"It shows us that perhaps this whole area was a very unorthodox area, a different area. Not the Jewish mainstream," said Arav.

Unlike many archaeologists, Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist Yuval Baruch - who appears to be the only Israeli archaeologist other than Arav who has seen the findings - says Jacobovici could be right.'

28

Where did Christendom go? They HATED our bible in 1950...just read...

by oompa in

jw
friends

the articles on the jw-cd which only go back to 1950 where we fought back the attacks.

i do not understand why they did not continue to blast our bible since it is such a fraud....down south in usa churches teach members how to refute dubs at their door.....but why did they stop blasting the nwt?

it is sooooooo easy to show a dub there is a bunch of made up crap in it.....i may have to help my local chruches.....if you need more info about the horrible fraud parts, feel free to pm me.........................oompa......even elders dont know

Disillusioned JW

In my previous post I included a link to https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/10440/prof-jason-beduhn-letter-on-nwt-kit-part-2 in which I quoted parts from a post (by bj) of a letter by DeBuhn. That same post by bj also included a second letter from DeBuhn. That second letter commented about the lack of a definite article (regarding theos) in the latter part of the Greek of John 1:1. It said what that signifies, namely "the word" was being said as being in the same category of God, rather than making the claim of being God.

DeBuhn explanation is thus in harmony with the WT's NWT translation of "a god". That agrees with what I read more than 12 years ago in a used textbook (which I found in a thrift store) about NT Koine Greek, in regards to John 1:1 and the meaning of a lack of a definite article in such Greek. [I made that discovery when I still thought of myself as a JW, but one doing critical research regarding the WT's teachings and doing independent research of the Bible.] Namely that the lack of the definite article (regarding theos) in the latter part of the version was making the claim that "the word" was of the same quality or type of being as God, instead of making the claim that "the word" was God (the God). The WT's translation of "a god" accurately conveys that idea, and is thus an accurate translation of John 1:1.

28

Where did Christendom go? They HATED our bible in 1950...just read...

by oompa in

jw
friends

the articles on the jw-cd which only go back to 1950 where we fought back the attacks.

i do not understand why they did not continue to blast our bible since it is such a fraud....down south in usa churches teach members how to refute dubs at their door.....but why did they stop blasting the nwt?

it is sooooooo easy to show a dub there is a bunch of made up crap in it.....i may have to help my local chruches.....if you need more info about the horrible fraud parts, feel free to pm me.........................oompa......even elders dont know

Disillusioned JW

What about the quotes in page 14 of the November 2007 Awake! (in the article called "Which Translation Should I Read?") of Jason David BeDuhn and Dr. Benjamin Kedar regarding the accuracy of the NWT? The topic thread at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/10440/prof-jason-beduhn-letter-on-nwt-kit-part-2 (in the initial post which contains a letter from BeDuhn) makes a very strong comments by DeBunh in support of the NWT. I am astonished by what that letter says.

See also https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/10361/prof-jason-beduhn-letter-on-nwt-kit-part-1 which in post by GinnyTosken includes a letter from BeDuhn in which BeDuhn says the following.

'I wrote a letter to the WBTS, thanking them for providing copies of the KIT free of charge to my class. I did this as a gesture of appreciation. I also took the opportunity to praise what I found to be the merits of the book. The sections of my letter quoted in the Watchtower accurately reflect my views.

... I used the KIT in a gospels course I taught, because I wanted to point out things that are hard to see in the more commonly available translations. Although the students didn't know Greek, by using an interlinear I was able to show them very subtle things in the text, and introduce them to a few Greek terms that are very important to understand.

... "Atrocious, deceitful, and inaccurate" may be what some call the NWT, but such a characterization is completely erroneous. Nearly every message I have received since the Watchtower article came out has claimed that "all reputable scholars," "every Greek or biblical scholar," etc. has condemned the NWT. It often sounds like people are getting this quote from the same source. But whatever the source, it is a lie. I have looked into the matter, and found almost no reviews of the NWT in academic journals.'

http://www.onlytruegod.org/defense/kedar.htm includes a letter by Kedar about the NWT and that letter praises the Hebrew Scriptures sections of the NWT.

It thus appears to me that the WT's Awake! article did not misrepresent the quotes of scholar DeBuhn and scholar Kedar.

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Disillusioned JW

The find the ossuary with a symbol of fish and the find in the same tomb of an ossuary with an inscription containing the name Yahweh is very impressive to me. But, for an article which less positive about the finds see https://www.nbcnews.com/science/cosmic-log/doubts-about-jesus-discovery-flna247150 .

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Disillusioned JW

Pertaining to the two videos (without the JW splice in the 2nd video) I linked to in my prior post there is an article at https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/filmmaker-says-jerusalem-tomb-houses-some-of-jesuss-earliest-followers/2012/04/05/gIQAjCioxS_story.html . It says in part the following.

'The Patio Tomb is similar in structure to the “Jesus Family Tomb.” It consists of small niches dug in limestone that contain ossuaries — small stone boxes designed to hold the bones of the deceased. The most significant discoveries are an inscription in Greek letters on one of the ossuaries and carvings on another.

James Tabor, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte who was part of Jacobovici’s team, says the inscription can be understood to mean “God, Jehovah, Raise up! Raise up!” He and Jacobovici interpret this as the earliest statement of faith in resurrection.'

It looks like the name of the full documentary is called 'The Resurrection Tomb Mystery"; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_Tomb_Mystery . I hope to find and watch that full documentary.

Many years ago on cable TV (or maybe on PBS) I watched a documentary by Simcha Jacobovici in which Jacobovici said the physical body of Jesus was not resurrected and that his bones were place in an ossuary. In the documentary Jacobovici also said that he believed that the earliest Christians believed that Jesus was resurrected to life as a spirit being (in other words the same teaching in that regard as the WT). In the same documentary a Catholic cleric said the church concluded long ago that Jesus had a bodily resurrection instead of being resurrected as only a spirit.

In a different topic thread I mentioned the view that the early Christians were called Chrestians instead of Christians. A source I read about that view showed pictures of inscriptions in Greek letters, including of the name Yahweh/Jehovah, along with incantations for healing.